Emetophobia Help with Anna Christie
Information about Emetophobia (Specific Phobia of Vomiting). Interviews with people who have emetophobia, are recovered, or therapists who treat it. Hosted by Anna Christie, psychotherapist, author and emetophobia specialist. Anna has a history of severe emetophobia and has been anxiety-free for over 20 years. TRIGGER WARNING: You may hear certain words on this podcast that are triggering such as "vomit" or "throw up."
Emetophobia Help with Anna Christie
Healing After Trauma: An Australian Survivor's Story
TRIGGER WARNING THIS EPISODE: Sexual assault
SEASON 4 of Emetophobia Help TRIGGER WARNING: Words such as "vomit,” “throw up” and "sick" may be used.
Host: Anna Christie, Psychotherapist and Emetophobia Specialist
Intro Music: YouTube Audio Library, "Far Away (Sting)" by MK2, Used with Permission.
Anna’s Website - INFO for emetophobics: www.emetophobiahelp.org
10 Emetophobia CLASSES with Anna: info at www.emetophobiahelp.org
Facebook Group: Emetophobia NO PANIC
ANNA & DAVID’S BOOK: Emetophobia: Understanding and Treating Fear of Vomiting in Children and Adults: Russ, David, Dr., Christie, Anna S.,
EMETOPHOBIA RESEARCH CHARITY: www.emetaction.org
FOR KIDS:
"Turnaround Anxiety Program" with Emetophobia supplement (McCarthy/Russ) and
Emetophobia! The Ultimate Kids' Guide eBook : Russ. PhD, David
Anna's Website: www.emetophobiahelp.org
Resource site for Clinicians: www.emetophobia.net
MERCH for stress, anxiety, panic: www.katralex.com
Hi and welcome to A Metaphobia Help. I'm Anna Christie recovered, a Metaphobic and licensed psychotherapist specializing in a Metaphobia. These podcasts have a trigger warning of words associated with a Metaphobia. If you enjoy these podcasts or you find them helpful, you can buy me a coffee. Just scroll down in the notes, click on the link and for a couple of bucks you can support the podcast. So season four, here we go. Hi everyone, I'm here today with Annie, who is from Victoria, australia, and she lives sort of southwest of Melbourne. For those of you who know something about Australia, I'm thrilled to have someone from Australia to talk to today, so welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you and I hope that you can hear me all. Good, I know we've had some little bit of difficulty this morning, but, yeah, super excited to have a chat with you and for anyone listening. If you know, geelong area, that's where I am from, so, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, I feel like I'm pretty worldly just knowing you know, like, where Melbourne is, sydney, perth, yeah, and the names of your are they states in Australia? Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:States.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we in Canada often say the name of our province too, the way you do, and then Americans don't know what we're talking about because they just sort of say the city. Like they'll say, you're from Vancouver, canada or Toronto, canada, but whereas we would say Vancouver, british Columbia.
Speaker 2:So anyway, it's not interesting. Yeah, I was trying to find the time difference between us on my clock on my phone and I could not find where it was that I was searching for. I had no idea what to type in, but we got there in the end.
Speaker 1:Well, I was setting up some of my classes in January and I wanted to be able to offer them to people down under you know, anywhere actually and so I had the same problem and I was trying to ask a like oh, I shouldn't say her whole name or she'll start.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying? I know, yeah, trying to ask her like if it's here, that anyway. And so then I just waited to. I'm like, ok, let me try the late afternoon. So when it was like four o'clock in the afternoon, then I asked what time is it in Sydney? Anyway, as I know, you have more than one time zone as well. So I'm like OK that works. That's nine o'clock in the morning, so anyway, but I didn't really think about you're already on daylight savings time because it's spring there, yeah, and we don't change over off of, we're still on it and we don't change off of it till November.
Speaker 1:So that messes us up, messes me up with people in the UK and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I, yeah. We've lived in Western Australia so perth since I was six and they, I think after about two years of living there, they stopped daylight savings. So now that I've just moved here 10 months ago and we have daylight savings again, I'm so out of whack with it. I'm waking up an hour late and hour early. I don't know what's going on, so it'll just take some adjusting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really. I know we're not talking about a metaphobia and I'm sorry to all the people fast-forwarding this yeah, but honestly, they've done studies and it's not a good thing. Like you shouldn't be changing off of standard time. Like a lot of people say, I'd like to keep it at daylight savings, but that's not supposed to be so good for your rhythms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can understand that.
Speaker 1:So it's yeah, the people in Perth Australia, they know what they're doing, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know I should go back.
Speaker 1:Okay, so so tell us all about your metaphobia and when it started, and all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have listened to the podcast quite a lot your podcast and it's very interesting how everyone tends to have a childhood story and it kind of goes through their whole life. Mine is hard to pinpoint when it started Trigger warning is it okay to talk about sexual assault?
Speaker 1:Yes, I'll put that trigger warning in.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely. Okay, so when I was six, oh sorry, seven or eight, I was at my at school I had a primary school friend and she lived on my street and I would go to a house and play a lot and her dad sexually assaulted me and so from kind of that point it was very muscle memory, I would say I had to run to get out of there. Sorry, I just take a couple of breaths.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you, you know and I'm yeah, that's okay. Being brave enough to share it with us, even though it's obviously difficult. I just don't know what else to say other than-. I know I'm so sorry and if anyone's listening that has been through any sort of sexual assault, no matter what kind it was, it does have long lasting or it definitely can ramifications in your life and don't feel like you're weird or stupid or anything for having you know-.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Continued sort of triggers around it and things that affect you in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so strange when talking about it, you know, because I don't have the. I don't meet the classification for PTSD, so I'm very, very lucky in the sense that I don't tend to have flashbacks. I think that is partially, though, the fact that I actually don't remember anything after the act. So I don't know if that's a combination of being eight years old, being probably very, very scared or in shock at the adrenaline. But yes, the father said let's play hide and seek and took me to his room and locked the door and then you know what went down, happened. So I remember sort of a feeling of this wave of heat being like I have got to get out of here, like I've just got to go. And for eight years old, you know, it's amazing that such a young person, young body, knows that that's a threat when there's not been much exposure in their life to things as sexual abuse. So I said my dinner's ready. I think it was about two in the afternoon, so I'm not sure why I said that, but it got me out of there. He was just like go. So I remember just running home and since then skipping lots of the story, but flash forward to now my response to feeling very nervous, feeling panic attacks, anxiety, is just to run and to get out of wherever I am.
Speaker 2:And so how we think their metaphobia started and why I have that response to just running, is when I was still living in England. So I was, I think I was about three or four. My mom took me to any UKers out there. She took me to Sainsbury's If anyone knows what that is, it's a grocery store and I said I don't want to go, I don't feel well. And she was like no, just come on, you'll be fine. And I was in the trolley and you know how they sort of strap children in the little trolleybasket, and I spewed everywhere, all down myself in the aisle, everything. And my mom said she's never quite seen a child react like how I just screamed bloody murder basically. And I was like get me out, get me out.
Speaker 2:And so I'm not sure if somewhere in my brain has remembered that trapped feeling with vomit and then in the wardrobe to being like you know what I mean Kind of tied the two together. So I guess that's kind of how it all started. But so after the sexual abuse, yes, the police were called and Department of Child Protection was called. We'd only lived in Australia for I think it was a year. So, bless my parents. They just really had no idea what to do, who to call. It was all so unfamiliar to them. But yes, they called those services and I believe there were investigations done with me. Again, I don't remember any of this, like for years I thought nothing ever happened, that my parents did nothing about it, because I just didn't remember, and anyway they ended up ruling it that it was a cultural difference, because this family was of a different culture, and they did nothing about it.
Speaker 1:What culture? Don't answer the question. It's remarkable. But what the hell culture? Is it OK to take the neighbor's child and into a room, lock the door and assault them? I don't think the wow. That's terrible.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that happened as well. But I mean good for your parents for reporting it. Yeah, at least you would feel safe with them, even if you didn't remember it, and good for you for saying something. A lot of children cannot, because they're so ashamed and they don't understand what happened. So they don't say anything, or the perpetrator tells them not to say anything, and they abide by that because they're children. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, we don't know. I'm sure if you've listened to a number of my podcasts. We don't know what causes a metaphobia, but we know several things that contribute to it. So any kind of trauma like that where you would feel afraid and vulnerable and whatnot, and then, yeah, tie it to the shopping we call them shopping carts here actually Then, yeah, that's another incident and then some of it will be genetic predisposition to anxiety from who knows who, but it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, you just throw all of that into a pot and stir it up and you get a metaphobia.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when did you? When's the first time you really thought about I'm afraid of vomiting or seeing someone vomit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it sort of went in waves. So after the assault I don't remember any kind of physical sensations, which I now obviously know are panic attacks. I don't remember any of that. But I think once I was about maybe 11 or 12, so four years later I remember every single night before bed I thought I'm sick, I'm going to be sick, something's wrong. And my dad would come in and he'd say you know what's going on, are you OK? And they probably had.
Speaker 2:Well, I know they had no idea what was happening to me either, and it was to the point where I was getting myself so worked up that I would be gagging and dry heaving, but nothing would ever happen. And for a year my whole family just thought oh my goodness, she is actually just unwell, there's something wrong with her. But yeah, nothing ever happened. Nothing came of that and then just dissipated and again nothing happened, no signs that I can remember any way of anxiety until I was, I think, 16, I was in high school, so I'm not sure how the years work in America, but high school, year 11, I don't know what that translates to.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's grade 11 in Canada. They have names in America. It listened to the two of us sound like we don't know what we're talking about. They have names. They have names like it's probably junior in high school, I think.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean Junior high.
Speaker 1:Softmore that sounds really cool. I have no idea what year that is, but don't send me emails, I can look it up, it's okay, Okay no worries.
Speaker 2:Yes, year 11, grade 11. And I was actually booked to go on a cultural tour with my school to Japan, which was awesome. I had hosted a Japanese student in my home and it was a cultural exchange experience and I absolutely loved it. And I was so excited to go on this tour and about two weeks prior, all of a sudden, it just hit me like a ton of bricks almost, like I had literally walked into a wall of just pure anxiety and panic, and very, very quickly my life changed. I suppose because I went from being in high school going on this international touring experience out with my friends all the time, and then I was completely stuck inside my bedroom, I refused to leave, I didn't go out anywhere. They ended up kicking me off the school tour.
Speaker 2:I said I was a liability, which was very nice, yeah, and so from I'm not sure if it was being away from my parents, perhaps, or if it was being away from home and my parents. So I've been away from home on international trips during that time, but always with my parents, because I was obviously quite young still. So, but yes, regardless of that, that's kind of when the first wave happened, I suppose, and they were all the very classic symptoms of anxiety and demedophobia. So I went in to see a psychologist. She was just an angel during that time, guided me through everything, introduced me to what is anxiety, what is a panic attack? Because these things aren't really spoken about in Australia much anyway. So I had no idea. And then I got introduced to a psychiatrist because the psychologist felt that we needed medication, so it wasn't much else that talk therapy could do at that point, and the psychiatrist put me on six different it was five or six different medications in the space of two months, which, yes, holy oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just a little break halfway through to let you know about resources that you can find. First of all, I teach a set of 10 classes for people with emetophobia and you can find information about those on my website at imetophobiahelporg. I also have a Facebook group called Emetophobia no Panic and you can look that up on Facebook. If you're listening as a therapist, there is a free website for you at imetophobianet. It has all the resources you need for free to treat emetophobia. Dr David Russ, child psychologist, and I recently published a book called Emetophobia Understanding and Treating Fear of Vomiting in Children and Adults, and it's available at all online booksellers. And now back to our podcast. So yeah, I'm really interested actually in everything you've done to kind of try to get over this. But your psychiatrist put you on five or six medications within two months. I mean they take about three months to work. Why did they keep changing all the time?
Speaker 2:Tell us more. I really have no idea, and every psychologist that I've spoken to is absolutely just freaked out and stumped as to why that happened Because, knowing what I know now one like you said they just wouldn't have shown any signs of positive impact during that short time. It was just very premature to take me off of medication after one or two weeks, and also the damage that probably would have been done to my nervous system to yeah.
Speaker 1:Hopefully not. They're fairly harmless drugs, believe it or not. They seem like I mean, I'm assuming that they were SSRIs or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a few of them were antipsychotics. I'm not sure if they're class SSRIs as well, but yeah, there was a few hardcore ones in there. Yeah, but ultimately I didn't stay on medication, not that I don't believe in it or that I don't think it works. I have multiple people in my life and my support system that need medication to just about function, and I think it's a saving grace for them. Just for me, with that experience, it didn't work very well for me then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after that experience, have you done other things to try to work on recovering from a metaphobia?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it kind of there's still a little bit more. My therapist always tells me that I should write a book because of just how crazy the journey has been. But so after that experience I just kept going with talk therapy and I don't know if it was maybe some motivation from taking all the medications. I just had a very rough patch where I was sort of like I was just really really down and I was just kind of taking a look at myself Like I don't want to live like this anymore. I'm so young. My friends are out doing all of these things, which is not to say that people can just decide one day they want to be better. I honestly don't know what the flick of the switch was for me, but things just started getting better and I just went out and I started doing more and I just pushed myself to do a little bit here and a little bit there and finally everything was back to normal in quotations and then at twenty, actually a soldier again I'm not gonna ask.
Speaker 2:I love. It's not funny, it's just. You know, sometimes you tell your story that often that it becomes almost like a what a crazy Journey like like they.
Speaker 1:They call it a comedy of errors, you know pretty much but it's. There's nothing comedic about it, but it's like. It's like it being kicked when you're down by the universe yeah, like that yeah yeah so can you tell us a little? You don't have to talk about the sexual assault, because we can well imagine it at age. Yeah, especially. But what? How did that affect you and what happened?
Speaker 2:yeah, and so with that time it was a similar feeling of being trapped because I had been locked in a car. So again, I had that feeling of get me out of here, but that time I couldn't leave. And so that tends to be. The running thing for me is, like I said, as soon as I get any type of, I feel a bit nauseous or I you know, my heart starts racing. It's like this danger, here I have to go, I have to get out of here, like something's gonna hurt me and that thing ends up being from. It's gonna hurt me, which is so. So why to me? Because when you think about things like I'm not worried about consciously, I'm not worried about sexual assault is gonna hurt me or a person is gonna hurt me, I'm worried about throwing up, like the. You know, the contrast between the two situations just seems so far fetched that I'd be focused on vomiting rather than focused on being assaulted again or something.
Speaker 1:So you know it's, it's all tied in together, is the thing you know, and it's the same part of your brain saying this is a very dangerous situation. Now, vomiting isn't dangerous, but but somehow it's gotten lumped in with you know other things, that it might even be in a way protecting you from those other things, which is you know, kind of. I always say that I think just one of my breakthroughs in therapy personally was discovering that my, my phobia, my terror, was really covering up the deep sadness that I had for what had happened in the traumas that had happened to me in my life. And you know, as an adult I'd be like I'd rather be sad you know I have a good cry, get over or whatever, than to have this horrible phobia you know, thanks anyway, but you're not really helping me and and so it could be the same with you, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean I don't know, but In a sense it doesn't really matter because you getting over it's the same no matter what. But it does, you know, for people listening who have had trauma, who've had Any sort of trauma actually and have a metaphobia. You know partly that phobia is trying to help you not think about your trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah yeah, I've been told that same thing by. I've had three therapists in my about seven or eight years, just for different stages of my life, and then I thought I've recovered and then I've gone, regressed again and gone back to therapy, but they've all said that same thing that you know. Phobias tend to be and please correct me if I'm wrong but they tend to just be an outlet for such chronic anxiety that your brain just tries to focus on one thing in particular, rather than fear being around you all the time.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that makes sense. I probably have never S worded it that way, but that totally makes sense. When you're a child especially, it feels as if fears around you All the time. When you're in a traumatic situation it feels as though you're not safe. So therefore you're not safe at all. Yeah, for any reason. And then the phobia and you know and then why it sticks with. I mean some kids it becomes a fear of thunderstorms or a fear of dogs or birds or whatever clowns. But there are enough thunderstorms, birds, clowns and dogs around that it's easy to kind of get over that and to outgrow it. But we can go for a year, decades, without vomiting and every time we almost vomit and don't. Actually that makes the phobia much worse. Yeah, because it'd be better if you had vomited you know, at least.
Speaker 1:Then you go oh okay, that was not dangerous, but yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I see quite a few sorry to cut you off. I see quite a few posts on your Facebook page because I'm part of the page of you know people saying does anybody else not verb? And I just wanted to add I thought I was super interesting because me, my mom, my auntie and my cousins, we all can't verb and we all just simply don't vomit, which you would think is very convenient when you have a fear of vomiting, that you know you can't, then you don't vomit. But it's quite the opposite, because it feels like this kind of looming cloud over you of well, what if this time is different? You don't know if this time is going to be different, but it's just, yeah, working so hard to be well, if it is different, then we'll deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there's a name for that. I always forget it, but I did write a blog about it. If you go to my website, a Metaphobia helporg and just go back through the blogs, there's a thing about not being able to burp, and a lot of the people who have that condition are a Metaphobic, which is interesting, and we haven't done enough research. If you're a PhD student and you're listening and you want to do research, I can tell you a million things that we could be researching about.
Speaker 2:My friend is doing a PhD. Actually, maybe I'll ask him to just change his whole thesis for the last five years very quickly.
Speaker 1:I don't think he'll complain about that, but anyway. But there is treatment for it. I don't know if you or any of your family members are interested. There's actually some treatment like where they put Botox in your throat and then you are able to burp and then you kind of learn to burp and so when the Botox wears off you can probably still burp, because a lot of the Metaphobic people, when they have trapped gas in their stomach, become very afraid that they're going to vomit. But really it's just gas. But yeah, easy for me to say just gas.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:That's nothing, but if you're in the situation, it's nothing so where are you at right now as far as your phobia goes? How's it going?
Speaker 2:Right now I am in one of the lulls again, unfortunately, but that's okay because, you know, I don't think that anxiety is ever going to be something that I ultimately get rid of, and so for me it's just so important to kind of go through these periods thinking like I'm going to learn so much on how to cope for the rest of my life when this happens to me. So, as mentioned, I recently moved to Victoria, so that was at the very end of last November, and two days before we moved we were driving over, which it's about a we did it in seven day drive, I think and two days prior my partner actually fell, fell over, and he broke his ankle in three places, had to have surgery. This was 60 hours before we were due to leave, so we got pushed back a couple of weeks and I did the whole drive by myself. It was a very good passenger, princess, but that sort of kickstarted a stress.
Speaker 2:Obviously, it's very stressful moving, let alone 60 hours prior, your partner's in surgery. Luckily he was fine though, so that's all good, but so I sort of didn't process the move when it happened. And then we got here and I'm away from my support system and we have, we know, nobody here, so there's not really that sense of community and there's nothing that was, you know, not my friends inviting me out for coffee or for brunch or to go and see a movie anymore. I just sort of regressed back into staying on the couch and watching a movie and sitting with my dog, and so we're in the process right now of going through all the exposures again and kind of re re learning, I suppose, how to just get back into functioning. But I haven't actually done like the ladder the ladder therapy before exposure therapy.
Speaker 1:Exposure yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I actually I'd never mentioned. I know I mentioned I had three therapists. I hadn't actually mentioned to a therapist about any of the sexual abuse until my latest therapist I've been seeing for maybe two years now and so I went to see her about something totally unrelated and at the end I said you know what? Maybe I should just mention these things happen to me. I don't think it's important. Why would that correlate into a fear of vomit? And she just sort of looked at me for a second like right.
Speaker 2:Okay sure, Let me just write that one down and I'll see you in the next session. But so, yeah, I'd never had the option to do exposure therapy and I truly think this time around is just so different. The way that I'm getting back into life is not kind of a I just have to do these things and I've got to knuckle through and just get on with it. It's kind of I'm really just trying to sit with everything and embrace where I am and it really feels different this time. And I mean, you know, the last time I was going through all of this is no way I would have come on and done a podcast and talked about vomit and all of these things. So, yeah, I You're very brave.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're very brave to and people who are willing to talk about even people listening are very brave, you know if you're just there are lots of people who cannot listen because we use words you know, like vomit and other words that mean that, and they cannot listen. And that's a lot of people, so very, very brave. And you've obviously. I mean, do you? You don't have to say what it is, but do you have a career, like some sort of job that you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do so. I was in finance originally and now I'm in people and culture. I don't know if that is a thing in America. It's kind of like talent acquisition, recruitment, hr safety, occupation safety yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds really interesting. So you've done. You know, despite what's happened to you, you've done really well. You've got a partner, you've got a career. You've you know you can drive across the country a big country that it is and, yeah, you can do all sorts of things, which is really great. I hope that you continue to be able to find people. I only know a couple of people in Australia who are working with the metaphobics, but if there are any therapists listening from Australia and you're not on my list, please send me an email or something.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean you'd be surprised just how many people are a metaphobic and I think it's such a it feels like such a niche, unique phobia to have that just nobody talks about it. But yeah, you know, when you was looking at something on social media the other day and it was a joke about children throwing up in primary school and all the comments I was reading was saying and now I have a metaphobia, and now I'm a metaphobic, and I just thought like there are so many people here, you know, and you don't see people commenting on posts about. This is why I have a fear of heights or clowns or spiders. So there's so many people out there.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of. Well, it affects, a fear of vomiting affects 6% of men, 7% of women, so that's a big percentage of people. Now there's only about 0.2%, or something like that, who are bad enough that they need that, they seek help for it. So that would be probably a diagnosis of a metaphobia. 0.2% is a lot when you think of the population of the world. Didn't we just hit 8 billion or something? I mean, and it does, it does cross every culture. I've had people from all sorts of all sorts of places, you know, and I only speak English well enough to talk with anyone anyway, but so yeah they're. But I have read and seen articles from all kinds of other Italy and Portugal and Germany and.
Speaker 1:Brazil. You know places where people are doing some research, but it it's everywhere and I think we're going to talk about it. I think it's not talked about because we're embarrassed, because we'll talk about it to people that aren't don't have a fear of it and they don't understand it. They say things like well, nobody likes it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't just say I didn't like it, though I said I don't like throwing up either. I'm like, okay, but would you almost pass out from hyperventilating when you're actually not even throwing up? You're just getting in the car to go to the shops, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A little bit different.
Speaker 1:Exactly that's why we don't talk about it, and I never talked about it with anyone because I was afraid of the embarrassment or shame or whatever. So then, since, since I've been recovered and became a therapist, I do nothing but talk about it all the time, everywhere.
Speaker 2:Good on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, on on podcast, on social media, you know, whatever. So the more we can talk about it, if you're able to, the better, the better that is Absolutely. Well, Annie, you've been a wonderful guest. What a delight to have someone from Australia to to speak with. I've talked online with many people from Australia, but never, I don't think, on the podcast. I apologize if I am. My memory's not great. I'm an old lady now.
Speaker 2:I'll represent the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, thank you so much. You're going to be a great inspiration to people to really. Oh, I hope so.
Speaker 2:I feel like my story was all over the place, but I hope it makes sense and thank you so much for the work that you do. Honestly, I found when I found your page it was just I felt like there were people out there that understood and it just having that community honestly just made me feel so seen and it's been a big. I think it's going to be a big part of everybody's recovery.
Speaker 1:So thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Are you listening from down under? If so, I have a set of a Metaphobia classes 10 classes that I'm conducting, beginning in January, on a Wednesday afternoon here in Vancouver at four o'clock, which I believe is nine o'clock in the morning in Sydney, australia, it is also seven PM Eastern. If anyone is interested in these classes, the information is on my website at a metaphobiahelporg.